The Prison of Presumption

prisonI recall with great shame the many presumptions I’ve made over the years. Perhaps you know a little bit about this too. People come into our view or friendship with their self-identifying labels or names (e.g., Christian, LGBTQ, Democrat, agnostic) and we often presume much about them. We also give labels to people we don’t know and yet presume much about, (e.g., liberals, fundies, non-believers, idiots and of course much worse). The names and labels are almost always related to race, sexuality and gender, politics, and matters of religious belief or the lack thereof.

After publishing the first essay (Ending the Decade of Quiet) I received a kind note of encouragement on Facebook with a gentle request that I not paint all the Religious Right with the same brush. I had written: “People and place need devoted voices expressing the third way between the noise of the religious right and the silence of the privately embarrassed, disillusioned follower of Jesus.” I felt that “noise of the religious right” was sufficient and accurate enough. It wasn’t. So I changed it to “far right.” I’m confident the new edit is open to criticism too.

This is the challenge of expressing our thoughts in public and wrangling words to be as accurate and graceful as possible. Sometimes our best efforts and words fail. I do believe there are noisy, unhelpful voices on the left and right of most societal issues. Rather than naming names and giving reasons beyond presumption, perhaps it’s more helpful to attack presumption head on. It’s a problem we can do something about even while we agree, disagree, and work out what we believe about being citizens of the planet.

The poison of presumption: Writing, speaking, and acting out of presumption poisons our relationships – existing and potential ones. We end up interacting with each other at a deficit, one that affects our communication for the worse, e.g., “I’m so sorry for not asking. I just presumed because you’re gay you wouldn’t want to go to church with us.” Yes, gay people trust in God, even go to church and temple. This is a fact. And contrary to the culture/media clichés, people of various religious beliefs, including Christians, enjoy sex, are the most learned intellectuals in the world, and don’t believe the earth is only 10,000 years old. Knowing and being known is the most effective antidote to the poison.

The power of presumption: Presumption has the power to delude the one who presumes. Presumption + Social Media is rocketing culture and civility back to the Dark Ages. Repeatedly, people post as if everyone reading is just like them in race, sexuality, belief and worldview. Ironically, if people really believe that life on the planet is best summed up as Us vs. Them Culture War, they ought to cease posting their battle plans on Facebook. We are all reading over each other’s shoulders. This is the world we live in. With presumption comes a kind of inability to see and hear, to truly know, and to understand where you’re at and what time you’re in. I have seen this power interacting with Christians who wrongly presume everyone in my recording studio is Christian and Republican – simply because I profess to follow Christ and produced for a Christian record label in the 1990s. We are all more complex than the presumptions people make about us. The real, life-giving power is in listening, getting to know people, and leaning into the similarities and not the differences.

The politics of presumption: Untrue presumptions about others are lies and convenient half-truths. Never forget that presumption is a political tool and the dark side of politics uses it to its shame. Presume, label, lie – is no recipe for life, despite such inhuman behavior written off as “just politics.”

The prison of presumption: It’s a caged life, presuming and judging, with little to no relationship with the actual subjects of our presumption and judgment. Freedom is found in pursuing deeper, personal knowledge through relationship. Then continuing to love because of, and in spite of, what you discover in relationship. My friend Steve Garber often asks, can you know the world, truly know it and still love it? I believe you can and so does Steve. This direction of thought may be complementary to other beliefs, but I know it’s right at the center of Jesus and his ways of being and doing. And so I follow. I invite you to as well.

49 thoughts on “The Prison of Presumption”

  1. This is truth: “Freedom is found in pursuing deeper, personal knowledge through relationship.” A friend who lives a distance away often has things on her Facebook I differ with. For me, these won’t be discussed in a social media format because too much is lost and misunderstood. These are face-to-face talks that, because of relationship, we can respect our differences and still be friends. Relationship. As you said, the “center of Jesus and his ways of being and doing”. Thanks Charlie.

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  2. One benefit of living today is the wealth of information available on any given topic. It’s also a problem. There is an endless stream of ‘editorial commentary’ available on everything said, so that after a bit, there is nothing left to say because the original statement has been deconstructed and left in a pile of verbal dust. It’s tempting to hole up and say nothing, but that’s of no value and cedes the field to bluster &/or error. I have to repeatedly learn to listen, compare to Scripture and love others while in the process we’re all in. It’s a struggle sometimes. I think it’s called sanctification in believers’ parlance… Thank you for speaking again.

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  3. I appreciate your words, the wrap up was wonderful. So the relationship is the thing, with God and with each other. I’m honestly confused by the facade of the facebook relationships. It’s awesome that we can have no other connection and still relate here, but does it keep us on the surface of all our thoughts? I think my thoughts are pretty awesome sometimes after reading things like you posted, but then they seem like seeds on rocky ground that blow away. I’m praying all the lovely things take deep roots in us and our relationships,Amen:)

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  4. Leave reply here: being borne of the Sabine People… Independent survival traits are most engrained… c.1971, came to know a man about SF, a photographer, who had a blown up ‘poster’ of some people on a river, waving to the boat that was passing, and later came to stand on the Russian River beaches… OUI… MOI….

    He referred to me as a ‘Sabine Person’, never grasp what he was referring, as my return in ’02, from Sonoma County, my own EXODUS, to learn, discover who I truly was, treasure that connection… In ’05, got a chance to talk with my late uncles ‘mother of his children’ and got some wonderful news as to who she was ‘ her nephew’ sister boy, they now call Willie… YES .. Sending me photos of my most beloved uncle, and the ‘family’ together, c. 1949….

    I had heard that Uncle Larry Cooper had some prose published, and she sent me an Arkansas Anthology, containing his work, as well as hers… One particular was most moving, as to the lost of a sister very early, a few days old, and surely as he wrote of her ‘Chandeler’, had been a issue in his, dads, uncle James and aunt Lillie cooper Whitman life…. The step mother, I have found carried Hyatt lineage, as deep in this area as Ashworth, Clark, Williams, Millers and so many more. As well, a most wonderful verse in tribute to her own sister, ‘Myrtle’ the mother to Willie… YES.

    Hope to direct copies of both to you, for we have some most gifted individuals in our lineage, and some have broken thru the “pine ceiling”, and you are one of them.. I enjoy your blog shares, wonderful insight.

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  5. Presumption, I have found, is often against Christian academics, apologists and thinkers because they take hits from both sides, and contrary to popular belief; the Christian community is among the most diverse and open to exploring “truth” in our society. In my experience working at three different and diverse Christian colleges over the course of many years, I was fortunate to be in schools of higher education where faculty and students were free to discuss and explore the complexities of life, faith, politics, and even to agree to disagree.
    By contrast, the most closed and limited academic campus I’ve ever worked was a state university. On this campus political correctness reigned. Faculty members were frequently chided and reminded to get in line through countless emails from fellow faculty. What I know is that Political correctness is a poison. It purports to care for the little guy and stave off hate, but instead it has created a demand for group-think and compliance. It is the 21st Century version of the flat earth society demanding, “get in line or else.”
    You’re right, is good to ask Christians to be open to those who hold to different theology, doctrine or even anti-theism but it is equally important to ask and expect the same in return. Then, and only then, is there a possibility for real dialogue.

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    1. Hi Deborah. You have such a storied name with great etymology! Thank you for sharing your academic experience. We need to hear each other’s experiences in order to put together a coherent picture of what people face in the marketplace of ideas and opinions. Thank you for sharing. For clarity sake, I do want to make plain that the blog post, both story and prescription, were offered up to anyone willing to read. Not to Christians in particular. As a citizen, I am asking everyone, everywhere, who might be reading over my shoulder, to put love and relationship first and presumption last. Thanks for joining in!

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  6. Love you, Charlie. The enemy of presumption is listening…it would be so wonderful if we could all truly listen to one another. I was strongly impacted by spending time at my grandparent’s house and watching neighbors of all varieties stop and catch up in real terms. I don’t romanticize some of the thoughts and actions of that time; but, the art of being present and listening is a real blessing seldom seen.

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  7. My 19-yr old daughter recently spent a few months in Ghana volunteering at an orphanage. While she was there she would, on occasion, walk to neighboring villages with the children. She said that the women in the villages often complimented her by telling her she was a “good Christian woman.” The first time it happened my daughter replied “Thank you. But I’m not Christian.” Taken aback the woman asked her: “If you’re not Christian, why are you here helping?” And my daughter replied: “Because I want to help.”

    On the topic of “the prison of presumption,” in this story the presumption of the local people is that all (foreign) people who want to help are Christian, which also implies – as the woman’s question to my daughter shows – that they think that people who are not Christian do not want to help, neither of which is true.

    Addressing your final paragraph, I think my daughter’s story also shows that people can build relationships and have a true heart for other people – as you call it, Jesus’ way of being or doing – even though they have no knowledge of Jesus or of any Christian doctrine. I understand through your writing that your belief in Jesus is what guides you in pursuing deeper knowledge and building relationships, and I appreciate that that’s what works for you. But my feeling is that it’s quite easy have compassion, to show kindness and understanding, and to accept others as they are even when Jesus is not in the picture. It’s the human spirit and not the holy spirit that guides us – or me, at least.

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    1. I love the story of your daughter for a number of reasons. Thank you so much joining in and sharing it. As you pointed out, one need not be Christian to be full of care for others and want to give time, talent, and resources in the service of others. To care and give does not make a person Christian, it does however exemplify what it means to live into the goodness and beauty of your humanity – what you call the human spirit. In my theological tradition, our story accounts for this with language like image of God within and common grace. Despite the woman’s presumption I do like being reminded that the Christian contribution to care and compassion has been long and deep. Because you wrote, even though Jesus is not in the picture for you, we now have unity and common ground in our mutual desire to help those with significant need. And perhaps even mutual gratitude in having raised children full of care. Glad to make your acquaintance.

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    2. There is an extent to which your last point may be true; namely, if someone hasn’t yet been fairly presented with Jesus as he truly is. Such a person, when given the opportunity, would run straight to him and embrace him.

      But to say that someone who’s had such oppotunity and yet refused him can still be filled with goodness is akin to saying that someone can be a good, compassionate, giving soul, while not caring a whit about the victims of Sandy Hook.

      Light does not try to dodge light; only darkness does that.

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      1. Since you asked – my daughter has not been presented with Jesus in any form, let alone “as he truly is” but if one day she finds Him and embraces Him I will be happy for her, knowing that she has followed her own true path and not one that was assigned to her by me at birth, or one that she felt compelled to follow out of a sense of duty or obligation to me, any other family member, or any institution. We are part of a multi-race, multi-faith family and for us respecting and embracing differences is as important as recognizing similarities and finding common ground.

        Talk of darkness does not scare or offend me, Lance. As most Northern people know, it is just as easy and just as treacherous to be blinded by the light as it is to be visionless in the dark. Unseeing is unseeing, no matter how it comes about, and I think that’s the point that Charlie was making – presumptions can also be blinding because they prevent us from seeing, or even looking.

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  8. My dad use to tell me that others opinions about about me were none of my business. It took me years to get the comfort in that statement. It took more than just years of growing up to realize I was cheating myself out of friendships for not getting to know more than your “labels.” We are a sensitive society. When all that really matters is the Golden Rule. Do for others as you’d like to be done. That doesn’t take labels or beliefs to accomplish!
    Great Read!

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  9. Good words. I often ‘feel’ the sentiment of Elijah, when he was in the wilderness, alone, fed by ravens. Wondering, ‘am I the only one?’.
    I consistently receive cock eyed stares from folks when they discover I’m not on board with church politic, and from secularists when they hear that I follow Jesus.
    Am I defined by my marriage to my wife? My skin color? My heritage? My wavering opinions?
    I hope to find definition in simply being poured out for others, my love of people and care for their struggles, and joy in their triumphs!
    Presumptions have broken and frayed many potential relationships, and instead placed a shim of bias between me and another. I wish this weren’t so.

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  10. We have needed your magnanimity & your deep desire to see people actually listen to one another. Isn’t producing at its core about deep listening? I am glad the hiatus is over as I have had the blessing over the years of being privy to one of your quandaries & the muse’s response. So much got worked out in song so thousands got the gift but now we get the pen again. May we all see each other daily as a brand new soul capable of change, remaining the same, & making a loving path for our differences without rancor.

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  11. Good word,Charlie. It’s almost like we need a new form of apologetics and loving spirit in all our discussions with others. It’s fine to have our own convictions–and we all do—whether we know it or not. And it’s fine to be who we are—-be true to gut-level beliefs—but we need to do it in a much more relaxed and inviting manner. And we need to look for and acknowledge our similiarities—-our human condition—-and then we can discuss how we each “deal” with our human condition on a daily basis.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Yes Chris, that’s exactly it. My friend Denis Haack puts it this way, and this is directed at people who profess to follow Jesus: “Being discerning includes learning to talk about and live out the truth of the gospel creatively and winsomely in a pluralistic culture. What we say should prompt interest, not end conversations.” And then I would add that this is for everyone, everywhere, and in everything: speak in such a way as to prompt continual interest, not end conversations. Hope to see you again one day. Always appreciate your role in the good work of JPUSA.

      Liked by 1 person

  12. There is a difference between presumption and making a valid assessment. In the first paragraph, you mentioned that “people come… with their self-identifying labels… and we often presume much about them.” If someone identifies THEMSELVES as homosexual, atheist, etc., (or as Republican, Lutheran, etc., for that matter), there are certain things we can, in fact, now take for granted about them. They’ve invited that. It may take some more observance to figure out why they would call themselves any of those, and how deeply entrenched they are, and so on. But to take their word for it is different than presuming based on, say, what car they’re driving, or whether they wear a ring on their left hand.

    As mentioned elsewhere, my concerns with this post are largely regarding ideas such as “gay people trust in God” (which is no more true than saying “pornographers trust in God”) and the bit about Christians not believing that the world is 10,000 years old (an acceptance of unproven evolutionary theories?).

    To focus on similarities with those who share a common basis is one thing, but to try to focus on relatively minor connections while ignoring contrary fundamentals simply doesn’t work; it’s unequal yoking. This even holds true with matters as (allegedly) serious as race: a black Christian and a white Christian should resonate to the same frequecies much more strongly than a white Christian and a white athiest (or black, red, yellow… what-have-you). Yet we – certainly I – want to focus on ancillary connections and ignore critical inequalities because, frankly, it’s more comfortable to the flesh to be non-controversial (i.e. “Yes, he’s gay, but he’s a great singer; he should be in the band). Ironically, this kind of purported kindness actually harms both parties by weakening the stronger one and failing to help the foundering one. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. It’s better in such cases to just call out the differences. Perhaps the person in error will listen, but if not, at least the other is protected. And as was once stated on Thundercats, “better an honest enemy than a false friend.”

    Paul himself talked about suffering from “false brethren”, so plainly there are those who might wish to be counted as Christians while their practices prove otherwise (and I know I need to examine my own genuineness, too).

    If you’ve seen some bathwater, you’re not alone. But be careful with that baby.

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    1. Lance, I’ll borrow a page from your playbook and make what I think is less presumption and more valid assessment. You process and write in a way that does not invite much response – at least not from me. Secondly, you prove through your processing and writing many of the problems I was inviting all of us to do something about – not the least of these the cultural phenomenon of writing in public with little to no acknowledgement that the world is looking over your shoulder.

      As with your previous Facebook post, what you’ve written in your two posts here demands a response. Unfortunately it demands too many responses. As promised though, I will answer the original post from Facebook I asked you to repost here for comment.

      Reprint from FB: “Charlie, I have listened to your music since 1990. I’ve covered some of your songs, listened to music you produced for others, read your posts, and now your new blogs, too. I would like to presume the best. But in this blog post, it appears that you are defending homosexuals. You wrote that they “trust God.” That’s like saying thieves and wife beaters trust God. If they’re totally ignoring his words, how can they be said to trust him? (1 John 2:4). If this is the direction you’re going, please say it clearly. It would be a shame, though, if after all the songs you sang about God, you started defending his persecutors.”

      You propose the question, how can it be said that homosexuals trust God? The first part of the answer is their witness – they say they do. It is a fact of public record and personal testimony, that some portion of people who profess same-sex attraction say they have put their trust in God. They trust that God is who he says he is. They study the self-revelation of his Word and profess love and loyalty for the embodied Word of Christ Jesus. They trust that in Jesus they receive forgiveness of sins, and grace and meaning sufficient to life. Again, it is a fact that some gay men and women give this testimony. You cannot disprove this and my reporting of it hardly equates defending “homosexuals” or “persecutors of God” – though I wouldn’t hesitate to discuss all the salient points of the Gay Christian debate with you if you were a trustworthy friend, or a respectful listener, full of care in conversation.

      Secondly, you argue that saying homosexuals trust God is like saying thieves and wife beaters trust God. I seem to remember a famous thief who put his trust in God not long after mocking Jesus (Luke 23:39-43). Every human being is in the process of becoming. I’m already different than when I first began writing you back.

      You and I both know that you have no idea what persons on the planet are totally ignoring God’s good path for humanity, partially ignoring it, or partially believing and responding in love and congruence to it. However, what is known, is that no one is believing and responding in love and congruence, everywhere and in everything, 100% of the time. Forgetful, ignorant, broken, faulty, hypocritical, sinful, judgmental, hateful, rude, unloving people (such as all of humanity) sometimes trust God. It’s been reported that the Pharisees asked Jesus’ disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” Jesus answered them himself saying, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

      You write: “If this is the direction you’re going, please say it clearly.” Okay I will. Yes, this is the direction I am going – any direction that Jesus is going.

      Liked by 5 people

      1. Well, I must have been at least a SOMEWHAT respectful listener, in order to buy all of those albums and to share some of that music with others. But I have noticed that when I’ve made positive comments about things like that (and I believe I even sent a private message on one occasion), I’ve never received a response. When I’ve expressed disagreement, however, I have received almost immediate responses.

        As for the thief on the cross, he was repentant. I do not dispute that Jesus welcomes repentant sinners; in fact I actively hope so. But again, that’s a whole lot different than the case of those who cling to their sin, take “pride” in it, and force it on others – often through lawsuits, even. There is nothing Christian about such behavior, though they may say they follow him a thousand times. Jesus himself testified to this (Matthew 7:21-23). Hence my comment about his persecutors.

        Perhaps my writing style doesn’t strike you as inviting (though you still gave a reasonably long response to it). Personally, I feel that depends on what I’m writing about. There are some subjects about which I’m ignorant, and am therefore all ears. There are some issues on which I am close-minded, and for good reason.

        So far, I have paid attention, and learned a couple of things through your presence on the web. Whether or not it’s what you hoped to convey is another question.

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      2. Lance, thanks for continuing the conversation. Forgive me for not writing with more precision. I did not mean to infer that the “you” in the sentence “if you were a trustworthy friend, or a respectful listener, full of care in conversation” was directed at you personally. I can see now how it could easily be interpreted that way. My error. More accurately, it should have been “if a person is a . . .” And yes, I’m aware that you are a long time supporter of my music – a respectful listener – and thank you. As for commenting on FB, Twitter, and blogs, I’m hit or miss and it looks like I’ve been miss with you excepting our present conversation. I’m sorry for that. There is no agenda to target those who express disagreement. In fact, both agreement and disagreement are invited. I think where you and I are missing each other is in our differing approaches to public communication and what we want out of the conversation.

        For example, everyone I know who professes to follow Jesus has been repentant at one time or another, turning away from all that is not good and not of God’s ways for humanity (myself included), and turning toward the grace of God in Christ – trusting that Jesus is for them (again) what they cannot be for themselves. Then they (myself included) cling to their sin, take pride in it, and force it on others – and yes, even through lawsuits. It is not any one person or one group of people (Christian or otherwise) that any one person or group of people may dislike, think is worse than others, or even hate, that has fallen short of love and faithfulness to God and all that he loves. No, it is everyone. There’s no place for superiority. As it is often said, the ground is level at the cross of Christ.

        Are there theological and social differences and intense disagreement between people? Absolutely. Does this stir up anger, rancor, and even hatred? Absolutely. Is that what we’re going for here at God • People • Place? No. We are going for civility and charity. Charity is an old word of course, but it’s got the right meaning: benevolence or generosity toward humanity, forbearance in judging others, and love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one’s neighbors as objects of God’s love.

        To be clear, what I want out of this public conversation is to discuss important topics related to God, people, and place, have the community of readers interact, and do it all with respect, love, mercy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, magnanimity, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. I’m committed to yielding to such big ideas (ones I believe are connected to Jesus) and praying to have a blog known by such things, and to be a public person known by such things.

        If you want this kind of public conversation, keep coming back.

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  13. Presumption is a thin veneer that must be peeled away to find the nuance and complexity of the heart and mind. For example, I hold Bachelor and Master of Science degrees, so people naturally presume I must believe in evolution, an old earth, and global warming. Do I? Get to know me, commune with me and see. Labels are a lazy man’s source of identity. Thank you for this call to look past them. Better yet, might we even eschew them for ourselves.

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    1. I love me some Brent Carlstrom and family! There’s solid scholarship from people on all sides of the Creation/Evolution debate. I used to read Wilder-Smith now I’m more sympathetic to Polkinghorne and Francis Collins. Even so, I still have tremendous respect for Wilder-Smith’s contribution to science and to me personally – his riffs on heaven and event horizons stretched my mind! Thanks for contributing good, solid points Brent.

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  14. I think there’s probably more presumption imposed upon a label now than there was, say 30 years ago – that is, a label, either given or taken (I don’t mind most labels people put on me… most, not all). So, it’s an important topic to discuss and I’m glad you brought it up.

    Years ago, labels actually meant something. If you were a Baptist, you said so and it defined your views on religion pretty accurately. A Republican was probably from Vermont or Maine and was fiscally conservative (my, how things have changed). If you ran a newspaper and called it “The Appeal Democrat,” the reader could anticipate your editorial slant. And, you would certainly know that the AD would report news a bit differently than the “The Union” up in Grass Valley CA – that would be the Republican newspaper.

    But, today it seems as if our language and the way we communicate has been so successfully subverted in the way people like C.S. Lewis predicted in “The Abolition of Man” or Francis Schaeffer observed taking place in the ’70s and ’80s. Because our use of language has become less precise and “deconstructed,” labels tend to be broader and more open to “interpretation.” We live in post-modern times and the label itself has almost become meaningless – “the reader decides what the label means to her/him.” Oh, and that’s when the shouting begins.

    It works both ways. If I label myself, I’m opening myself up to wild variations of meaning and the label becomes almost worthless. When someone labels themselves, I’m left to decide if I’m to understand that label by the dictionary definition of the word, the caricature of that label by ill-disposed people, historical understanding of that label or the contemporary identification, which is often the inverse what that tag meant decades before.

    So when someone says they are… “whatever.” I’ll probably need to turn down the presumption and make an effort, through dialogue, to understand what kind or specie of “whatever” I’m really dealing with.

    I actually see this a real negative development, because labels used to be a valuable tool of communication to facilitate communication and cooperation, not only in conversation but in every aspect of human cooperation and community. Now, it takes hours of prolegomena just to have a simple discussion. Just go back through the post and this thread – look at all the qualifications that have to be made, just to have a bit of civil discourse.

    Thank you, CP.

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    1. Bo, this is so insightful. Thank you. What you’ve written is the prequel and the sequel to my blog post. You did it all AND got in a plug for the old Appeal=Democrat, where my claim to fame is making the news by getting bit by a dog on Cooper Ave. in Yuba City! I digress, that was fifty years ago. Just wanted to say hello, thanks, and I’ll be borrowing these insights and giving you credit. My best to Denise.

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  15. Charlie, thank you for this! One suggestion: I think you mean “complementary,” not “complimentary” (third sentence from the end). Gives a different meaning.

    Tony Peterson

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      1. Yes, Jay practices what you’re preaching here. I try to as well. It sometimes is difficult when Jay lobs a grenade into the minefield of his diverse friend base.

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  16. Charlie, so glad I have found you on FB, and here. I have found the discussions here enlightening, and bringing a somewhat glimmer of hope within. My wife andIi face the predicament of not feeling at home spirituslky anymore. Granted we are not spring chickens, both 61. We have gone from very involved in ministry, to feeling like wayfarers. I have found that my belief system has changed in the past years, and in doing so, it has cost us relationships.. You seem like the type of person, i would love to set down and talk with . Maybe so eday. Will be setting in the bushes listening

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  17. Thoughtful article with such wonderful points. I live in the tension of so many different “labels”. Race, culture, religion,geography, and another-party affiliation. And i must say, I am very discouraged. If one looks at my family you would say progress, but if one listens to the hearts of people, the words people use to describe each other and separate ourselves, it leaves me discouraged. My hope is in the Lord. And then also, posts like this.

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